***This one's totally unedited for typos. Sorry!***
Day 29 of Oath Keepers Trial - Nov 17
Good morning! Before we begin Day 29’ tweetstorm here at the Oath Keeper’s trial . . . a little ditty ‘bout Jessica Watkins, who will face cross-exam by the government this morning:
“She was not just a follower. She was higher up in the chain. She was a recruiter and did recruit others to participate in the events of January 6 … She is not just a foot soldier. She is someone planning, organizing larger groups of people.” -Judge Amit Mehta, February 26, 2021 (CNN)
Watkins brought one other person with her to DC on J6. Donovan Crowl. [Update: there was another older couple that was part of her entourage, but they came seperately.] The most she ever had in her OSRM was 6 people. She had no leadership role whatsoever in the OKs or on J6. For whatever else she did wrong, or might be guilty of, one would hope our DOJ - our very system of so-called “justice” - wouldn’t build their cases on a foundation of lies. Or begin, as did Judge Mehta, on the premise of "Guilty until proven innocent."
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Judge Mehta takes the bench at 8:32am. Defendants are not yet in courtroom. They have waived their right to the early morning session.
Haller - for Meggs - immediately requests to put on an investigator to validate the CCTV videos regarding Special Agent Lazarus claims to have seen Officer Dunn’s interaction with the OKs. Nestler doesn’t object, and says, “We’ll cross examine the investigator.”
Crisp - for Watkins - seeks limine instructions for certain statements regarding her interactions with other defendants.
They are now diving into the complexities of the jury instructions in relation to the three different “conspiracy” charges facing these defendants. Defining “conspiracy,” at all, is already difficult, before throwing five people into a single, multi-defendant case . . . when some of these defendants didn’t even know each other until the day of J6.
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Jury seated at 9:16am . . . cross examination of Jessica Watkins begins, by Gov atty, Hughes.
Watkins believed a Biden presidency was an existential threat. Believed in conspiracies about the possibility of UN force vax threat.
“Dangerous to you and your way of life?” . . . “if the UN had come with needles and guns, yes.”
Hughes is introducing new messages into evidence we have not seen, but the content is nothing new, in terms of content. Political in content, expressing fears of what a Biden admin might do . . . with typical language . . . “I’d rather die on my feet . . .”, etc. Watkins answers in the affirmative to having seen, participated in, and said whatever words are presented . . . “Correct,” “Yes, ma’am.” “Right.” Not combative with Hughes in the least.
Then comes the barrage of message slides we’ve already seen, dealing with events and statements about DC events prior to J6’s announcement. (Million MAGA March, and Stop the Steal rally.)
***NOTE: One wonders if Mehta will also tell the government attorney to “Move along, the jury gets the point.”***
Questions about the Stop the Steal QRF, what other defendants she knew at the time, how many guns were in the QRF van, etc.
With regards to J6, Hughes presses Watkins on testimonies by Siniff in which he warned her not to go to DC, “that she could be arrested.” Watkins disagreed on the details of both their personal conversations and his testimony.
More questions about the guns she left in WV on the way to DC on J6. When Hughes presents chat slides out of order, Watkins tells her, “You tried to pull that stunt on me in my FBI interview. You can see from your own slide numbers that you’ve skipped out of order. I was not responding to the message you presented.”
Hughes then gets quite combative about Watkins’ knowledge of the QRF at VA hotel. Watkins matter of factly says, “We always have a QRF at every event. That’s what we do.” (But Watkins left her guns in WV, so was not fully up to speed on the VA QRF.)
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Hughes wants Watkins to qualify when she first really became aware of who Ken Harrelson was. She only remembers him as “the selfie guy,” until much later.
Hughes claims that Watkins said in her first FBI interview that “they had the numbers necessary to force their way into the Capitol.” Watkins contested that assertion, and asked Hughes to produce the document - “I’d be happy to read what you have.” Hughes moved on without showing Watkins the FBI affidavit.
Now playing previous Zello recording about another OK talking about the “treasonous bastards in side the National Capitol.”
Watkins responded “Roger that. God speed and fair winds to us.” “It’s spread like wildfire that Pence has betrayed us.”
Watkins tries to clarify that she wasn’t necessarily responding to anyone else’s direct Zello chats, because it was too hard to hear, and when she would send a message, she wasn’t necessarily responding to anything, only reporting what she was doing and where she was. Watkins also contends they are again playing messages out of original sequence.
Hughes play inflammatory Zello recording by other people, and Watkins responds, “as you can see from CCTV, I’m on video the whole time, and not using my phone.” Then she pulled out phone in Rotunda where the famous selfie video of her saying, “we're in the fucking capitol, bro.”
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Hughes is now getting rather combative about timing of statements, what Watkins meant by those statements. Hughes seeks to admit new evidence . . . objection . . . sidebar . . . exhibit approved. To dispute the moment when Watkins rebuked the lady in Capitol for breaking glass, saying “This is my house. I paid for that,” the document purports to show Watkins did not file or pay taxes in 2018. Watkins deputies it, saying she worked for Old Navy that year, and filed in order to get her tax refund.
Hughes then shows the video of her scrum in the Senate hallway - which she apologized for yesterday. Hughes presses her on why she “said she saw no violence.” The debate excites into full blown argument, in which Watkins raises her voice and tells Hughes she’ll say it again and again, “That I take full responsibility for what I did in that hallway . . . and I know that opens me up to criminal liability for saying it!” (Very emotional, confrontational exchange.)
More confrontational exchange about what Watkins knew and didn’t know about coordination for J6. She never saw Rhodes all day, and had no idea what comms were between Meggs and Rhodes.
After J6 - Hughes presses her on inflammatory comms talking about “staying longer” in DC, but left for home back to Ohio. When she got back to OH, she was doxxed by a reporter, and then drove back to Caldwell’s farm. She and Crowl left their phones back in OH. Discussion about painting Caldwells barn, and covering up the word “Trump” previously painted on roadside of barn, but Hughes was cleaning they were the ones waiting the word Trump not he barn. Watkins backs her down, and Hughes moved on.
Hughes continues to aggressively press her about her political rhetoric leading up to and on J6, and Watkins responds responds in kind that “half the country still feels that way,” about the stolen election and covid restrictions.
No more questions . . . . . . Mehta calls for a shot 10-minute break.
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***NOTE: in quick overview Watkins’ cross by the government, There was nothing new presented - except for the accusation that Watkins didn’t file or pay taxes in 2018. Hughes was aggressive in her questioning. Watkins began the cross with calm and deference, but when Hughes started presenting the intent and meaning of certain language of Watkins’ she began to push back just as aggressively as Hughes was pressing her to “admit” to the government’s ascribed meaning and intent. Watkins is bright and well-spoken, and had no inhibitions about standing her ground when she felt she was being misrepresented.
Short break is over, Mehta back on bench, Watkins back on stand . . .
Nestler rise to says Watkins inculcated Meggs, and therefore they have the right to cross exam her, but that he does NOT believe her testimony inculcated Caldwell, and they therefore doesn’t have right too cross. Mehta calls a sidebar . . .
Jury reseated, and then Fischer - for Caldwell - beings defense cross. (That’s a surprise, considering Nestler’s argument.)
Fischer asks to show her copy of her FBI interview. Mehta tells him to just begin, and he’ll decide if she needs to ‘refresh’ her memory after questioning. Basically addressing her confusion of memories about whether or not she knew or had met Meggs back at MMM. Then quick questions about her time at Caldwell’s ranch, talking about “Antifa hunting,” etc. . . . but nothing about J6.
No more questions. (No other defense crosses.)
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Crisp back for redirect . . . begins by having her clarify that she had no intent to use offensive force against the US government, but was fully willing to use arms against foreign invaders. Also clarifies what she means by “resistance.” She was also concerned about radical leftist groups, like Antifa, brings domestic violence to the streets.
She explains how she “resisted” the Obamacare mandate, by refusing to sign up. She considers that a form of political resistance to unfair laws - not using violence.
When Crisp brings up the assertion that she didn’t file taxes in 2018, he “accidentally” mentions that she has been imprisoned since January of 2021 . . . ( a big no-no, not to be heard by jury) . . . Mehta calls sidebar . . . Crisp came back and re-words the reason ‘why’ she might not have seen any IRS notifications since January of 2021. She also explains that filing requirements due to covid were pushed back for subsequent year, and that Old Navy obviously withheld taxes from her paycheck, so they WERE in fact paid.
Crisp begins showing the video from her “stack” approached the Capitol steps and when they were making their way up. From her vantage point, she couldn’t see any violence against Capitol Police. Explains that she’s not saying it wasn’t happening, but she couldn’t see it. Nor hear anything than the loud crowd noises and chanting. Also, while going up steps she obviously was not on her phone or Zello.
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They then begin showing video from her own phone, which is showing her facing away from the Capitol videoing the crowds and celebration. Switching to another video, when she turned around, the crowd was already moving toward doors that were opened, and could still see no violence. Only crowds going inside through those opened doors.
She says if she’d seen police being attacked or sprayed, it would have pissed her off. If she’d seen injured officers, she’d have rendered aid.
Going back to why she didn’t want to leave her own weapons at the VA hotel QRF, she explains, again, the idea of leaving guns in a hotel room, where a maid might find them, was not very appealing to her, for a variety of reasons.
Crisp question her about the difference between the way she felt in the “moment” of walking into he Capitol, versus how she felt in hindsight. She says she’d have quickly pled guilty to trespassing.
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She explains that her only reason for going back to Caldwell’s farm wa to get away from the press and left wing activists that had begun harassing her. That as soon as she was noticed that the FBI was looking for her and Crowl, they immediately packed up and headed back to OH, and turned herself in to authorities.
Watkins never touched the handles of the east doors when they went into Capitol. She clarifies the specific OKs she was with and aware of that day, and who she didn’t know was there. She was unaware of “Stack 2” or even who they were.
When she walked out of Capitol, she immediately started looking for the others in her group to get back to hotel before curfew. She had no idea Rhodes or Greene (Whip) were even at Capitol that day.
No further questions . . . . . .
Crisp rests Watkins case. Geyer has no witnesses for Harrelson, and rests his case. Haller is called upon to make their final presentation. Haller asks for Court’s indulgence to deal with technical difficulties.
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Haller calls Marissa Wallace to stand . . . a TX private investigator who has reviewed CCTV video from inside Capitol. The question is about the time that Special Agent Lazarus actually interacted with OKs and Ofc. Dunn - as per his testimony for the government earlier in this trial. With no objection, they enter CCTV video into evidence. (Point of presentation is to show that Lazarus could not have seen what claimed in his testimony, according to the time CCTV captures his movements through the Capitol.
Wallace testifies that Lazarus does not appear on video at times which would have allowed him to have seen OKs interactions with Ofc Dunn.
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(Mehta was being uncharacteristically patient with Haller’s plodding, quirky presentation of evidence and witness questioning, but he does finally begin to intervene, to hurry her along . . . as he usually does with her.)
Mehta finally cracks . . . . . . Haller quickly concludes.
Hughes begins cross of Wallace. Wallace has never been in Capitol building, but when asked what she saw in videos, she says see has only seen footage of the barrier Meggs and other Oath Keepers put up between protestors and Ofc. Dunn.
No further questions. (Whoa. Can’t believe Hughes left that hanging.)
No redirect.
Woodward come forward to enter into evidence on behalf of all defendants, an written operational plan by Meggs on J6.
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Mehta announces that we’ve reached an important milestone, as all defense teams have now rested their cases on behalf of their clients, and immediately calls upon government to begin their rebuttal case.
FBI Special Agent Eller is called back to the stand . . . and begins by referencing his previous interviews with Watkins, and conflicts in her statements. Government enters new CCTV video into evidence, in which Eller claims Watkins “smokes something” in the rotunda. Hughes says it’s marijuana . . . objection . . . sidebar. Eller says Watkins did say in her interview that she smoked marijuana in Capitol.
No further questions . . .
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Crisp begins cross of Agent Eller. He asks Eller if these FBI interviews being testified to today was record. “No.” Asked if they had recording equipment, he answers they would have to get special permission. Watkins never signed off on the 302s (Agents’ summary of the interviews.) and he answers she did not. They are not transcripts. They are written summaries.
She was interviewed by FBI five times. Eller’s job in latter interviews was to clarify inaccuracies from earlier interviews, media reports, and video footage. Crisp is obviously pressing him to admit they that THEY had levied accusations against Watkins that were later proved to be false accusations . . . objection . . . . . . no more questions.
Hughes back for redirect . . . asks him if it would have been a significant fact if Watkins had said she thought the vote certification was over. . . he agrees . . . no further questions . . .
AUSA Nestler calls Special Agent Kelsey Harris back to the stand . . .
Mehta interrupts for a quick “comfort break” . . .
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Harris’ testimony begins . . . Nestler quickly begins with videos and chat messages which contradicts certain aspects of Caldwell’s testimony . . . about 111%’ers, that Atkinson was unknown to the FBI as ever having been an agent, the .22 rifle Caldwell carried into hotel, the differences between a “silencer” and “suppressor.” That suppressors must have special permit for purchase, and there’s no such thing as a true “silencer.”
Discussion of Caldwell’s Life360 app and its ability to track individual’s locations. Stamey was in Caldwell’s Life360 app, and they had shared their locations with each other on the 6th - implication that Caldwell was aware of VA QRF.
More evidence of Caldwell’s “unsent FB” messages. Now presentation of New Yorker article that Caldwell accessed several times, which mentioned Crowl and Watkins actions on J6, and same time Caldwell began un-sending FB messages.
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When beginning exam of call records between Rhodes and Meggs . . . objection . . . sidebar . . . Nestler comes back and has to establish Harris’ expertise in examining phone records. Back to original questioning . . . and back to the alleged three way call between Rhodes, Meggs, and Greene . . . for one and half minutes.
Harris reviews Rhodes’ disputed time zone presentations from cellphone call records. Harris confirms that the presented time zones were correct, despite Rhodes’ assertions. They present messages to prove that “UTC minus 5” equals Eastern Time.
New evidence admitted. Harris’ previous expertise is in complex financial crimes. This is going to Rhodes’ failure to file tax returns between 2008 and 2020. “There is no record he filed tax returns during that time.” Confirms there is no record of Watkins filing tax returns from 2018 to 2021.
Signal Chat slide sends shows Rhodes message sent from “LB”’s phone, in which he says the “fight is now in the states” and if Trump fails on invoking the Insurrection Act, it’s time to follow in the the steps of the Founders, and is now in the hands of the militias.
No further questions . . .
Mehta calls sidebar . . .
Returns to announce lunch break for jury . . . but needs to talk to counsel about a few things . . .
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Defense counsel continues to argue the language of the final jury instructions on the three conspiracy charges.
Then there is discussion of scheduling, which has again been extended by additional challenges. Now looking like defense counsel may not even finish their closing arguments until Monday.
Mehta now clears the gallery and cuts the feed to media room to go into a sealed session . . . which I believe is happening because Rhodes’ lawyer is challenging something said in the government’s rebuttal case, possibly even saying that it opened up their ability to call another witness.
Will report as soon as we learn what’s going on . . .
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We just got audio back in media room at 2:20pm, and we could see Fischer arguing something before Mehta . . . when audio popped back on, it’s apparent the argument was about something to do with Life360, but we didn’t catch all of Fischer’s statement. Then Nestler popped up to say that Caldwell’s testified they did not have Life360, but that the data on their phones says otherwise.
Jury reseated at 2:30pm . . .
Agent Harris to be crossed by Linder - for Rhodes - . . . brings up that 90 second phones call that continues to come up. Harris says he can confirm that the three-way call did in fact merge. they do not have a receding of the content of that call, and we do not know if the crowd noise was so loud that they they could even hear each other.
Linder is arguing that the government is trying to insinuate coordination to enter Capitol in that 90 second call, but they cannot present any evidence that such a conversation took place, only that Rhodes had sent a message for everyone to meet him at the NE corner of the Capitol . . . outside.
no further questions . . .
Crisp - for Watkins - takes over cross of Harris. Crisp established that Harris is not an accountant. Gets Harris to admit that there is no requirement to file taxes if person earns less that certain amount.
NO further questions . . .
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Fischer - Caldwell - begins cross of Harris, asking him if he knows Sen. Lindsay Graham might attract a lot of protestors in public places, given his position in government. Asked whether or not he’d interviewed Shaun Pugh . . . Objection! . . . sustained.
Then more questions about Life360 records. Harris is only aware that Caldwell had been accused of having Life360, but is personally unaware of any evidence that he actually had Life360. Harris reads affidavit where Stamey was the one who invited Caldwell to join Life360 so they could stay in touch on J6.
Discussion turns to the alleged former FBI Agent who was at the Caldwell farm. Harris said their investigation into “Atkinson” is that he was never an agent, and only a repair tech of som kind that had to be escorted into the FBI building.
Harris then answers questions about the .22 rifles and directly says that a .22 is as dangerous and just as deadly as any other caliber. “Dead is dead, regardless of caliber.” The discussion of those “suppressors” vs. “Silencers.”
No more questions . . .
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Nestler returns for redirect . . . back to the tax question . . . then returns to those messages sent by Rhodes just after 1:30pm on J6 . . . referencing the founders, Lexington, and that an hour later three of these defendants “stormed” the Capitol.
“The government rests its rebuttal case.”
Mehta informs the jury that there will be no more evidence or testimony presented in this case, and that after a short break he’d be reading their final instructions before deliberations. After jury leaves, he dismisses Juror #16 from duty, as she is moving to Texas tomorrow.
Metha releases everyone for 10 minute break.
I will NOT be trying to relay jury instructions . . . but will post the transcript as soon as it is available.
Unless anything surprising happens in the next few minutes . . . I’m signing off for the day.
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