Day 11 of Oath Keepers Trial
Judge Mehta arrives at 9:08am . . . morning housekeeping begins . . .
Woodward first up to object to upcoming videos taken by Caldwell early on J6. Nestler jumps up to podium to argue their admissibility. Woodward then offers up additional video to put gov’s presentation in context. Woodward argues that much of the inflammatory language in crowd noise is not associated with OK’s speech, and therefore prejudicial. Nestler argues that their transcripts endeavors to parse out Caldwell’s, Meggs’ and other OK’s specific speech, and leave out that of unknown crowd members. Now they are haggling over specific photograph which we can’t see in media room. Mehta’s basic comments seems to incline toward admissibility, but that he will review relevant case law before presentation. More objections to authentication of video from Kellye Sorrell. Nestler once agains brings up previous stipulations and that this is the first time they’ve heard of these objections. Exactly 20 minutes into this haggling and Mehta is being surprisingly patient and good humored…
…Now 30 minutes into this evidence debate between Woodward and Nestler, and Mehta yet remains calm. And it continues . . .
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Geyer approaches podium with pointed complaints about just last night discovery items from government - he’d requested since January of this year . . . <objection> . . . Mehta immediately goes to sidebar . . . but then on open mic references the media room screw-up last week, in which we heard an ‘under seal session’ - and he directs the techies to be sure we can’t hear what’s going on.
Mehta then leaves the courtroom, to speak with jury.
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Judge Mehta returns at 9:54am, and mentions jury is arriving from a more distant location in the building. (I assume COVID rapid-testing, again?) He asks if Dolan (witness) is ready. Jury enters the room at 9:56am.
Dolan takes stand and Linder - for Rhodes - begins cross-exam.
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Linder has Dolan verify that they went back to hotel before curfew, and that there was no conversations of OKs going back into the District on the following morning. Confirmation of already known details about not bringing firearms into DC . . . when they loaded up the next morning . . . driving back to Florida with Harrelson and Cummings in his car. Also, verifies that there were no conversations about getting back to Florida, “reloading” and heading back to DC for battle. Subdued ride back to FL, with very little conversation between the three of them. Dolan confirms he wasn’t arrested until late May of ’21, then describes the details of arrest, and that he’d had no contact from Law enforcement before arrest.
Linder: “How many times have you had conversations with agents of the government before your testimony yesterday?”
Dolan: “Maybe 4 times.”
Dolan acknowledges that he eventually entered a plea to two of the five original charges against him. He confirms that he’s expecting to be sentenced to between 5-7 years in prison as part of his plea. Linder begins showing him examples of sentencing guidelines, enhancements, etc., and his discussions with his lawyer about potential sentencing if he took deal vs. if he lost at trial.
Linder: “Is part of your plea agreement, that you’d cooperate with government?”
Dolan: “Yes.”
Linder: “If you refused to cooperate . . . or changed your mind after receiving deal . . . do you have an understanding of what could happen to you?”
Dolan: “I suppose it could be worse . . . “ (sentencing)
Linder: “Do you believe that if you cooperate, you could get a lower sentence?”
Dolan “I believe there’s a chance.”
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Linder now begins reviewing Dolan’s service, work, health history . . . and substance abuse issues. Dolan admits to using alcohol as a pain reliever following his hip surgery. Linder explores his early relationship with the OKs, and how they gave him a sense of purpose - similar to his days in the Marines - and he was very impressed with the similar military backgrounds of other members. Liked that they offered hurricane relief services, as well as offering personal protection Services for various VIPs.
Linder asks him many questions about the specifics of his understanding about firearms laws in both FL and DC.
Linder: “Was it your understanding that members of the OKs were trying to follow the law.” (with regards to firearms)
Dolan: “Yes”
Linder: “Did you try and follow the law?”
Dolan: “Yes”
More discussion about care taken not to violate DC gun laws, and after dropping off luggage at hotel in DC, they immediately left for security details in DC on the evening of Jan 5. Dolan has no memory of the exact people he was providing PSD. “I didn’t know those people, anyway.”
More discussions about adhering to DC firearms laws - under direction of OK leadership - on the day of the 6th. Did Dolan participate in PSD on the 6th? “Yes.” Was he aware there were as many as 7 other OK group providing PSD services that day. “Not aware.”
Discussion into his understanding of the Insurrection Act . . . what happens if Trump invoked Act . . . his understanding that there was no other justifications discussed by any OKs on Signal or otherwise, that weapons could be brought into the Capitol, unless Trump evoked IA.
Questions about Dolan’s PSD duties that day. Only aware of his obligation to the Stop the Steal VIPs. Eventually, his charges disappeared into the crowd, and only then moved toward and up the stairs of east side of Capitol until the crowd surged that direction. Quick review of the rest of his day.
Linder: “At the end of the day, after Trump had not invoked the Insurrection Act, what did you do?”
Dolan: “Went back to the hotel.”
Linder yields cross to Juli Haller - for Meggs . . .
Haller shortly reviews his service history, and asks him about possible PTSD, depression, and about whether he’d ever sought help for alcoholism. Dolan says he’s never been clinically diagnosed with PTSD or depression, and had never sought help or counseling for alcohol abuse.
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Mehta calls morning break before Haller gets into meat of her cross (10:41) . . .
. . . Mehta back in courtroom at 10:52 and immediately calls sidebar before re-seating jury.
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(INSIDER NOTE: there's concern among attorneys not to push Dolan too hard. Even his co-defendants believe he might even be suicidal. If defense attorneys push too hard, and breaks down on stand, he could then become a sympathetic witness in the jurors' mind.)
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At 10:59 Mehta announces another “under seal” session and clears the courtroom of all but legal teams, defendants, and court officials. <I assume our media room feed will get cut this time> . . .
Then, Mehta steps out of courtroom to speak to someone . . . <Mehta, Man of Mystery> . . . Mehta is back . . . but he’s just sitting there silently. No idea what he’s waiting on . . . and we still have video feed in media room.
NOW we know reason for his silence . . . the courtroom tech came down to media room to make sure we were CUT OFF from this ‘sealed session,’ manually. He tells us they no longer trust the 'off' button in court room. (We go dark at 11:05am)
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Court tech returns to media room at 11:30 to put us back online. Jury re-seated and Dolan recalled to witness stand. Haller resumes cross . . .
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Haller questions about Dolan’s activities while inside Capitol. Didn’t enter House or Senate chambers, didn’t break anything.
She questions him about a photo taken of PSD he did for Roger Stone in Dec. of ’20, at a Miami event. He is very hesitant to identify most in photo, except for Stone. This is where he met Meggs. He didn’t meet Harrelson until they drove from FL to DC.
Dolan has a propensity for not having a very good memory for names, dates, times, discussions, faces, what photos he took, etc.
Haller: “Yesterday, you discussed that “10,000 is an army, but the most OKs you ever saw gathered was only about 25?”
Dolan: “That was the most I ever saw on a chat.”
(Can’t tell if Dolan is being evasive, genuinely can’t remember what he said yesterday, or Haller doesn’t effectively pose the question.)
Dolan, over and over: “If you say so.” “If you say it is.” Even when asked to verify photos from his own camera phone. Haller presenting his own photos from VIP area at The Ellipse on morning of J6. He recalls and identifies a photo he took of Alex Jones, inside the VIP area. Including a selfie with AJ in the background.
(PERSONAL COMMENT: Does Haller think the Alex Jones photos makes him look like a conspiracy kook, someone with special VIP access to celebrity, or . . . (?) . . . does she think showing AJ helps her client’s case in front of THIS jury?)
More photos of OKs inside VIP areas at Ellipse. Haller seems to be establishing the overall legitimacy of the OKs mission that day, and their most-favored status as recognized VIPs, themselves. Dolan is simply authenticating.
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Haller begins questioning about his time on Capitol grounds with Harrelson, and if he recalls a discussion with him about whether or not they should enter the Capitol. Dolan recalls no such discussion.
Haller begins showing Dolan a video, in which he hears a voice saying “I think we should go,” while they are still in grassy areas far from Capitol steps. (Another voice says, “Huh?” The “huh” was Harrelson, but not identified during this questioning. It is video I have personally previously seen and heard.)
Showing another photo of his from up on a pedestal. Questions and affirmations about singing National Anthem, chanting “USA, USA,” and that it “felt like a rally.” Dolan then confirms from another video his identity on the Capitol steps.
Haller shows video of Dolan’s position on Capitol steps much lower than most of the crowd already pressed against the door and building. Shows additional video of arrival of next group of OKs. Video shows door closed when they arrived, and then opening substantially ahead of their arrival and with a bunch of people between them and the door. Haller has him confirm that he doesn’t know any of the other non-OKs in that crowd, and that also from his vantage point he can see no police officers as the crowd ahead of them begins surging through the open door.
Dolan reconfirms that once he was in Capitol, he had no physical contact with LEOs and damaged no property. He only chanted and took video.
Haller brings back the previous photo of OKs standing in front of officer Harry Dunn - taken by Dolan - they are in a line between Dunn and the protestors. Dolan confirms that they were protecting Dunn from the protestors, and that Harrelson had verbally assured Dunn that he was in no danger from them.
(NOTE: “Officer Harry Dunn” is not identified by name in that exchange. Only as “the officer.” I’m just personally familiar with this event and the characters involved.)
***I'm later told that Haller DID mention Dunn's name.***
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Haller concludes with last round of questions, including asking Dolan:
-If he ever heard that trump invoked the insurrection act? NO
-Did he go back to his hotel in VA to retrieve guns and then return to Capitol? NO
-Did he ever have any discussions with Meggs or other OKs, either in chat or in person, about planning for violent or forceful entry into the Capitol or of overthrowing the government? NO
Judge Mehta calls for lunch break at 12:35. (Back at 1:35) . . .
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Mehta returns to courtroom following lunch at 1:43pm . . . jury back . . . Dolan returns to witness stand.
Haller hands off cross to Geyer - for Harrelson - . . .
Geyer asks Dolan if it was on January 3rd or 4th that he first learned Harrelson was going to DC. Dolan doesn’t remember whether he first picked up Cummings or Harrelson in rental van before leaving for their overnight in NC on the 4th.
Dolan confirms that he was on duty to watch over event speakers on the evening of the 5th. Looking for anybody that might try to go after the speakers. “There was a lot of talk about Antifa.”
After security detail, Dolan and Harrelson bought a couple six-packs, and did not attend a security planning meeting that was in the hotel that night.
Morning of the 6th neither Harrelson or Dolan wore heavy protective gear to the rally at The Ellipse.
Geyer: “Was it made clear it was okay to bring mace . . . to protect you against attackers, or to protect your protectees from attackers?”
Dolan: “Yes.”
Geyer takes Dolan through discussion about his assignment to escort VIP event speakers from Ellipse to the scheduled events at the Capitol area. Geyer shows Dolan a map of the Capitol area. Dolan doesn’t recall seeing or not seeing the map. “It’s possible I saw it.” (Map contains names of the lost of protectees. And Dolan only recognizes two of them.)
Geyer brings back the time-synched four-panel video showing the movements of Harrelson, Dolan and VIPs in the walk toward the Capitol. Dolan identifies himself in the video, and also confirms that it is a PSD he is leading. Also identifies Harrelson behind the VIPs.
Geyer: “You’re headed to where the stages are suppose to be, correct?”
Dolan: “If they were to be behind the Capitol, yes.”
Dolan acknowledges a couple other OKs with them, but doesn’t remember their names. Can’t personally remember the names of any of the VIPs.
Geyer: “Are you thinking about disrupting the certification of the college while you were standing there? [with VIPS]
Dolan: “No”
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Geyer reminds Dolan he had a recollection of receiving a text that the capitol had been breached this moment (1:53pm). Geyer points out that did not actually happen until 2:12. Geyer asks him again if he and Harrelson were thinking about attacking the Capitol or police officers. Dolan confirms they were only looking for where the stage was suppose to be, and doing no plotting against the Capitol - just standing around and chatting.
Dolan acknowledges he had no idea of the layout of the Capitol, or which direction they were even escorting the VIPs. Also acknowledges he had no idea what was about to happen. Geyer asks him to let him know at what point in the video when he first “realized something was amiss?”
Mehta interrupts and asks Geyer to “move on . . . I’m not exactly sure of what the relevance of this is. Let’s go to the next topic.”
Geyer is now showing the first moment provocateurs are pushing through the east side baike rack barriers, and asks if Dolan knew what was happening from his vantage point quite some distance away. While Geyer is making the point that at the moment the barriers were being breached, Dolan lights a cigarette . . .
Mehta interrupts and calls for a sidebar . . .
Geyer is allowed to proceed.
***IMPORTANT:media room journos break out laughing their asses off when Geyer asks Dolan to let him know when “sees something amiss”., and reporter exclaims in room: “I can tell you what’s amiss!” - the most blatant sarcastic eruption in the media room thus far in the trial . . . totally missing the point Geyer is making point that Dolan has NO PART and No AWARENESS of the Capitol barricades being breached. They don’t even understand why Geyer is being allowed to proceed. Mehta is impatient . . . but allowing to this continue . . . he sees it.***
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Dolan acknowledges he had no awareness the barriers had come down.
New video:
“They’re storming the fucking Capitol building, whooptie-fucking do.” -Harrelson’s voice
“We should go up there.” -Dolan’s voice
“Huh?” -Harrelson
Geyer gets Dolan to acknowledge they had no knowledge or intent this would happen, and that Harrelson said, ”They’re storming . . .” Not, “We’re . . .”
Geyer is showing new video of their approach and ascension of the steps, as well as beginning to point out other unidentified individuals in their presence. (Geyer is treading on dangerous ground . . . and Mehta’s already demonstrated resistance to hints of “unindicted conspirators” . . . but Mehta still allows this to continue.)
Geyer continues to take Dolan through the video of their ascension up the stairs, and the arrival of the other Oath Keepers join them. <Mehta interrupts Geyer and tells him to move forward. “The court knows the point you’re trying to make, and jury knows the point you’re trying to make. Let’s move on.”>
(Geyer is testing Mehta’s patience . . . and tells Geyer to stop trying to identify people Dolan doesn’t know, and if he doesn’t move on, he’ll make him sit down.)
Geyer: “Did you think you were being let in to the Capitol?”
Dolan: “I don’t think I was contemplating that at all. I was just taking pictures and video. That’s all.”
Geyer hands cross off to Crisp - for Watkins . . .
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Crisp begins taking Dolan through a series of technical military command structure and communication questions that he understands as a 20 year Marine vet. (Staff Sgt)
He has Dolan acknowledge that he basically received nothing similar from OK leadership in mission planning or direct comms or briefing leading up to or on Jan 4, 5, 6 . . . and certainly nothing discussing a purposeful attack on the Capitol.
Dolan acknowledges that he didn’t even have his phone on (in airline mode) all day on 6th, and wouldn’t have been able to receive and command orders or instructions. Didn’t even turn it on until he tried to call his wife, [just before 2pm]
[No more questions.” Crisp is done . . . Mehta calls for afternoon break at 3:02pm
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Back from break at 3:18pm
Redirect of Dolan begins, by AUSA Nestler.
Nestler has Dolan confirm his VIP pass only allowed access to Ellipse VIP area, and not into the Capitol.
Nestler asks why Dolan deleted the photos he took inside Capitol, but not the ones at Rally earlier in the day. “Because I was scared. I wasn’t suppose to be there.”
Nestler asks when he was chanting “Treason,” for who was that intended: “Congress”
Nestler shows video and asks if crowd pushing into Capitol was peaceful. Dolan declined to characterizes everyones intentions.
Nestler asks why Dolan went into building. Dolan responds that he wanted Congress to know that - along with this many people - they could let them know they weren’t going to take the election results “laying down.”
Nestler tries to draw Dolan into saying the messages and chats seemed real enough to think that the language insinuated implied a desire of OK leadership to do more than just PSDs.
There are multiple objections . . . and Nestler volunteers to rephrase.
Nestler goes back to old message slides to remind Dolan of the kind of bravado language he’d previously heard and acknowledged from other OKs. Reminded him that he’d said, “he thought if Trump didn’t act, he might have to . . .”
Objection . . . sidebar . . .
(Side note: Dolan is markedly less comfortable and hesitant with Nestler now, during redirect, than he was during direct.)
“Objection overruled”
Nestler: “What did you understand the general message to mean . . . “
Dolan: “If the president didn’t act, and we needed to . . . we were up there, on location . . . we would do something . . . the Capitol doors opened, and I went in screaming TRAITOR.”
More message slides . . . and Nestler gets Dolan back “on original message”
No further questions. Dolan dismissed.
——
United States calls Thomas Wickham. Formerly the parliamentarian for US House of Reps.(Retired) Worked for House in January of 2021.
Wickham taking question about legal transfer of power from one president to the next, and begins reading from Article 2 of Constitution. Then reads 20th Amendment.
Media does not select presidential nominee. ‘That’s just information.” They continue describing the legal process of how Electors vote, when and where their votes are to be sent. And who is to count those Electoral votes, where and when. (Jan 6 after meeting and vote of Electors.)
<History and Constitution lesson proceeds on how we technically elect presidents> . . .
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Gov. begins showing video compilation of when Congress became aware of the disruptions on J6, the evacuation notices, scenes of Congress peeps being led out . . . all of this with timestamp and overlay of the official written congressional record. Then shows actual Electors ballots being carried out of House. Then Pence ceremonial duties being interrupted and him led away.
The proceedings here are now simply a detailed recounting of what took place in and with Congress that day - the official response - how they sheltered - how they behaved - etc., etc. Eventually video of protestors entering Senate chamber, then being cleared by police.
Fast forward to videos of Congress AFTER 8pm that night, and their eventual return to the certification process, late in the evening of January 6, all the way until after 3am on the morning of the 7th.
Then slides of Pelosi and Pence presiding over respective chambers before Congress was interrupted.
No further questions.
——
Fischer - for Caldwell - begins cross . . . more constitutional lessons, as specifically applied to the transfer of power. Fischer is arguing she technicalities of the transfer . . . and not sure where he’s going . . . or why.
Tarpley - for Rhodes - takes over cross . . . asking question about specificity of Electoral Count Act. Then Tarpley begins asking about the Objections to the certification that were offered during joint session on the 6th.
Tarpley is asking Wickham to confirm how the objections are to be handled, what the substance of the actual objections were that day? What are the time limits in confirming the counting. (four days, apparently)
“Was there ever any doubt in your mind that Congress would conclude the counting?”
(Multiple objections follow. Mehta chastens Tarpley to move on, and says, “I’m giving you some rope, but . . . “)
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Woodward take over cross . . . opens with two straight sustained objections . . .
Mehta steps in once again, and tells Woodward that he has “anything relevant to this case, ask them.”
Woodward steps down . . . Geyer comes forward for cross . . . begins by asking questions about congressional security . . .
(NOTE: I get the impression the defense is playing “four corners” right now.)
Mehta now stops Geyer and tells him the witness is not qualified to answer his questions.
Geyer steps down . . . and Nestler begins redirect.
Nestler asks when the vote was finally certified. “Around 4am the next day.”
No further questions.
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Mehta dismisses jury at 4:54pm
Nestler gives court heads up that tomorrow is going to be a long and intense day of presentation from their next witness, FBI Agent who will focus entirely on events, videos, and messages from January 6th. He anticipates the government presentation will be about 3.5 hours, and that all defense attorneys will want long cross exams.
All done for the day.
